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Wednesday, February 18, 2015

Jodha Akbar Historical Update | Akbar trying to be God ? + Future Tracks


This is a short update about a track of Zee TV's show Jodha Akbar. 
I am terming it -> "The God track". 

It is shown that the flatterers of Akbar are supporting him and making him believe that if he cannot be the God himself than he can be the next most powerful person after God / Allah / Khuda / Bhagwan / Ishwar.

In this "God Track", it is being shown that -->
i. "Akbar tries to equate himself with God",  or i must say
ii. "he is trying to become the most powerful person after God", or 
iii. "he is trying to become the God present on Earth".

Watch Episode 442 - February 16 2015, between : 6:47 & 11:00 . The exact dialogues used in the episodes can be heard at this link. 
Link : 

In the end of this talk Akbar says ->  "Jald se Jald wo sikke banwaye jaye taaki aawam ko ehsaas ho saake ki Jab unki fariyaad wo EK Khuda na sun sake to dusra to sunega hi".

A New Promo has been released. It can be watched here.
New Promo Picture - Credit(Bhavna)

Now, naturally lot of questions arise while watching this track. Viewers are eager to know whether such an event happened in reality or not. Along with this, Zee TV has released a New Promo.

In regard of the same issue, here is a short historical update. I always love to write a LONG and Detailed writeup, but for time being do suffice with this, as i am short on time to write a long one. I have also given some future possible historical tracks, and i really hope the makers show all of them, focus on Jodha Akbar, as there are lot of events which can be shown.

This post is not meant to hurt anyone's religious sentiments. Now, I am only writing what History has told us. You will understand this post in a better manner, if you remember the years/timeline i am mentioning in this post. 

First, I am listing some core events from history. Before you read, let me tell you that this period is THE MOST controversial period in the life of Akbar. You will understand why i said so, as you read more below. Try to think after reading these incidents. If the Creatives of Jodha Akbar have touched this then it is a brave decision, but they should be careful in the execution. The track is inspired from history , of course with drama in play.!

I. Akbar issued a new Imperial Seal & new coins in 1575-76

According to Al-Badouni -> " Akbar asked how people would like it, if he ordered the words "Allah-u-Akbar" to be cut on the Imperial seal, and also on the the dies of his coins."

Many people supported Akbar, but some objected. Among them was a cleric Ibrahim who objected and said that the phrase could not be used. The issue is that the Emperor's name was also Akbar. Akbar means Great.

Hence, "Allah-u-Akbar" gave 2 meanings which offended some people. It "could" mean these two things ->
i. God is great, or 
ii. Akbar is God <--(This means Jalal-ud-din Muhammed Akbar was God.!!)

Hence, Ibrahim requested Akbar to substitute the verse "Allah-u-Akbar", and suggested the use of a verse from the Holy Qur'an -> "La Zikr Allah-u Akbar", which means "To commemorate God is the greatest" or "Speaking of God as Almighty".

Hence, this verse, if used, could easily remove the ambiguity. But Akbar became displeased at this suggestion & strongly resented this proposal of Ibrahim. 

Akbar's rejected his proposal saying -> "It was surely sufficient, that no man who felt his weakness would claim Divinity; he merely looked to the sound of the words, and he had never thought that a thing could be carried to such an extreme."

Before Akbar thought of using this new verse on the coins, the verse which was used on coins was -> "Huw-al-Ghani", which means the "one who is Independent" or "the one who is supreme/perfect".

Also, before this, the verse used on the Imperial Seal, was -> "Bismillah-ir-Rahman-ir-Rahim", which means "In the name of Allah - The most gracious the most merciful". Now, this was also replaced by "Allah-u-Akbar".

Several scholars have criticized and doubted Akbar's intentions, as he rejected the well thought out advice of Ibrahim. Had Akbar agreed to the suggestion of Ibrahim, there would have been no doubts over his intentions.

II. Renewal and Re-imposition of Jazia(Tax) on the Non-Muslims in 1575

Many of you have been asking me if this is the beginning of "Jallad(Devil) phase of Akbar" ? I want to tell one incident which happened around the same time. 

This was also the time when Akbar reversed one of his earlier landmark decision. You all remember that Akbar had abolished the tax - Jazia in 1564. But he brought back this tax in 1575.

An order of Akbar given in this regard has been noted in Al-Badouni, Vol-2, Pg-210. I could not find much details. Akbar ordered his religious ministers to assess and decide how much tax should be levied on Hindu population, and farmans were dispatched in all the directions of the Empire announcing this new decision. But, this regulation disappeared soon. Akbar withdrew Jazia again in 1579-80.

Some scholars are also of the view that this tax was re-imposed in order to pressurize the Rana of Mewar, Maharana Pratap, to make him surrender to the Imperial Mughal authority. Remember that, this period was one of great tension between Akbar and Maharana Pratap. The Battle of Haldighati also took place in 1576. So, the makers can show this event also, as they are NOT following the timeline.

III. Role of Abu'l Fazl

This track has shown Abu'l Fazl supporting the idea of Akbar being equated to God. Well, in one sense, this is true. It was Abu'l Fazl and his father Sheikh Mubarak who gave Akbar the idea of being the "spiritual and temporal guide of his people" on this Earth. The concept of Akbar being "Zil-e-Illahi" was supported by Abu'l Fazl very strongly. In the Din-e-Illahi Akbar is termed "Zil-e-Illahi", meaning "Shadow of God". 

Akbar used to conduct religious debates in Fatehpur Sikri since 1575-76. Abu'l Fazl was the head of one of the sections of the debating parties. He at last persuaded the emperor that his subjects ought to look upon the king not only as the temporal, but also as the "only spiritual guide." {Ain-i-Akbari, I, xiii}

IV. Role of Mansoor

Along with Abu'l Fazl, another person is shown to be supporting Akbar a lot, in this decision in the present track. He is Mansoor. I have not got any information about this person's involvement in this kind of act. But, he was a major finance minister of Akbar. He was caught on charges of treason around 1580, as he was found to be in secret correspondence with Mirza Hakim and hand in glove with his conspiracy to overthrow Akbar from Hindustan. His secret letters exchanged with Mirza Hakim were discovered by Raja Man Singh, who exposed him to Akbar. Such was Akbar's belief on Mansoor that he did not act against him(or perhaps did not believe the charges to be true) at first instance, but when his letters were discovered for 3rd time. Then he was executed. He was hanged till death on a tree, and this job was assigned by Akbar, to Abu'l Fazl. !! Though, Akbar punished him, but he often felt that he lost an able distinguished official in Mansoor.!

Future Tracks which the makers can show in the serial.

i. Since, the makers have brought this track of "coins" and also brought Mansoor in picture, i doubt they will show the "heated religious" debates which took place in Fatehpur Sikri since 1575. Acc. to Badayuni, such was the intensity of debates that, when "tongue" was not sufficient, the debating parties often used their "hands/limbs" to settle their point. !!! :-P

Akbar's religious debates in the Fatehpur Sikri since 1575 had began to turn the orthodox Ulemas against him. Badayuni, himself an orthodox, was so much frustrated with Birbal's views that he abused Birbal in his book. For Raja Bhagwan Das also he uses quite bitter words. Badayuni has infact "celebrated and rejoiced" their deaths in his book. 

Badayuni calls Abu'l Fazl as a "cursed infidel" for he supported Akbar and infact encouraged him to be the spiritual and temporal head of his people, and was liberal in his outlook. Badayuni has also written about the influence of Rajput wives of Akbar, for which a separate post will be made.

ii. During this time only, in 1577-78, an orthodox Sadr(religious minister) of Akbar, executed an influential Brahmin of Mathura on charges of blasphemy. Initially, he was brought to the court, but his crime could not be established. Hence, Akbar ordered him to be kept in custody, while the investigation was on. Death sentence could only be awarded by Akbar. But, this minister was so powerful that he got this Brahmin executed without orders of Akbar. 

Badayuni has not named any Rajput wife of Akbar, but only that Akbar's Rajput wives had put their complete force in the defense of that Brahmin, and they were a major force due to whom this Brahmin was not punished, despite the strong points put forward by many Sadrs of Akbar during the trial. And, when that Brahmin was wrongly executed, Akbar was "taunted" by his Rajput wives for his inability to "control" his ministers who were becoming very powerful and acted against his orders. {Persian Text, Tarikh-i-Badouni, Vol-3, Pg-129}

iii. Shortly afterwards in 1578 Akbar discovered that the Ulemas , Sadrs / Mullas were mis-using their powers, and discovered large scale corruption in the allocation of charitable lands. He confiscated the lands and along with that, took strict measures which offended the entire Islamic theologians, and they aligned against Akbar. Akbar was going to face a major revolt.! The measures taken by Akbar are too large to be covered in this post. Already, these people were offended by Akbar, due to the debates in Fatehpur Sikri, now they became even more bitter towards Akbar.

iv. In 1579, an event happened which was going to prove to be a final nail in the coffin. A full-fledged revolt was going to take place. What happened was that Akbar issued a document which was prepared by the father of Abu'l Fazl. This document gave Akbar enormous powers to decide the cases if there was any dispute among the religious theologians. This was seen by the theologians, as an attempt to put into practice the earlier suggestion to Akbar, of becoming the "spiritual and temporal head of his subjects". 

It was drafted in such a manner that the Emperor must be accepted as the supreme arbiter in all causes, whether ecclesiastical or civil, when ever there was difference of opinion among the interpreters of Shariat. It will suffice to say that Akbar was solemnly recognized as being superior in his capacity of Imam-i-Adil* to any other interpreter (mujtahid) of Muslim law - Shariat. Some theologians signed the draft willingly some were forced to do so. 

* - Imam-i-Adil means -> "One who is Just Like God".

This alarmed the Ulemas, because they thought Akbar was taking wide powers and concentrating them in his own hands, and reducing the hold of the Ulemas. Earlier also, Akbar had confiscated some lands and made new regulations, after discovering corruption by Ulemas, which were not liked by the latter.

This fear led to a full fledged war against Akbar, starting 1579-80, for economic, political & religious reasons. The Sadrs of Bengal and Bihar declared Jehad(Holy War) against Akbar and issued Fatwas against him, appealing the masses to safeguard 'Islam' from Akbar.! Mirza Hakim was invited to attack Hindustan from the North West Frontier, and from Bihar and Bengal's side Afghans gave GREAT trouble to the Mughals.! Raja Man Singh was sent to handle Mirza Hakim and Raja ToderMal was sent to Bengal. But it took as long as 1585 to completely silence the rebels.

Man Singh was given an offer to surrender himself before him, by Mirza Hakim, who had superior forces. This is what Man Singh replied to Mirza Hakim ->

" I will not break my promise to your brother Jalaluddin, who has kept this fort under my charge. If you want to try your fortune, move forth to the storm ; as I am ready to stop you. If you have faith in your greater forces, I am confident of the valour of my blood and my men, who will die thousand times sooner than surrender. If you proceed and capture the fort, I won't care for my life. I only care to be faithful to my word to my Shahenshah. "


I am not giving my view on these events which happened from 1575 to 1580, as they can not be covered in a single post. I made this post only to tell you all what Akbar did and what were the reactions to those events.

Another thing, which is worth noticing is that, the Creatives/Writers of Jodha Akbar have taken a sort of back-leap because all these events which you are reading are from mid 1570's onwards, while the show Jodha Akbar is running around mid 1580's ; because wedding of Salim and Man Bai happened in 1585 and Aram Bano was born in 1584. 

Perhaps, it has become clear that nothing can save this show except tracks which focus on life of Jodha and Akbar, not their children or grandchildren. :-P

Since the show is not following the events chronologically, it is not a big deal to worry about the time line. At least the makers have decided to show these events. For once, it looks like the show is trying to be about Jodha and Akbar once more.

So, this was the history part of the current track which i could share with you based on my readings, and which i think should proceed in this manner. Let's see how is all this shown in the show. I have shared some ideas for the future tracks also, and will share more, in coming days, as and when time permits.

Article Category : Jodha Akbar and Mughals(Akbar).

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  1. Abhay

    awesome post :) Will post comments later :)

  2. ohh... thanku abhay.. just got to knw so many things..!! and actually makers cud have used real events in this show without taking any leap. really sad thy skipped those possible events just for sakali lv istory.. :/ and if makers took back leap (thro soul talk) to show this following real time line thn it wud b really amazing. but nw i hv to say something is better than nothing... !!!! @@@@@@@@

  3. Thanks again Abhay for such an informative detailed post. Really appreciate your efforts.

  4. Sankaran SatheedeviFebruary 18, 2015 at 9:09 PM

    Thank you Abhay for this information, nowadays I only watch akdha scenes so was a bit confuse about the serial, I was in doubt whether it was NR or real!

  5. Waawww many thanks to u abhay for this post.
    I'm really waiting this one. As my members ask me everyday, whether this God track is real or not.
    I will translate this for them. And maybe make som questions while reading and translating it.
    Thanks a lot.

  6. Abhay, Radhika, or others, could you give me, please, english translation of Hindi dialogue above??? What did Akbar say at the end of 442 episode??

  7. Great to know the historical part abhay, thanks a lot :):)

  8. Abhay

    Thank you for this highly informative post! I am glad to see that the makers of JA have finally pulled up their socks to show some real historical events :)

    The new promo seemed a bit scary, but I am hoping to see more focus on Akbar and MUZ along with their achievements. Jodha has just been reduced to a weeping mother as her son continues with his philandering ways. Salim is just annoying in every possible way. I saw yesterday's episode, where Jalal almost discovered Salim's afeem addiction but Ruqs bribed the Hakima to wrong the diagnosis :(

    Such is the state! :(

  9. Abhay, Radhika

    I don't understand. How come the re-imposition of jaziya could pressurize maharana pratap and make him surrender to mughal authority???

  10. Nia,
    You can simply share this link with your members. They will translate themselves. :)

  11. Your last line sums up every thing very well Dushi.!
    At least some thing.! Let us see, how the makers proceed in this track. :)

  12. Yes Suganya,
    That religious minister was so powerful that he got the Brahmin executed.
    I agree that now perhaps they will focus on Akbar and his Rajput Wife. :)

  13. Samanika,
    Summed up nicely. i also read the update and was very annoyed to see that they are making mockery of Akbar and MUZ. But this promo and track has given some hopes, so let us see what happens. :)
    Ruqs has again emerged as the unbeatable champ in this show.! :-P

  14. Hi Sankaran,
    The track is "inspired" from history. I hope they do not do too much of dramatization. :)

  15. Thank u history-geek, fr this very informative post.! i was thinking that the present track is another Natakiya Rupantar, as makers want to show the tension btween Akbar n Salim. Thank God! u wrote this post:). I really hope one day Ekta Kapoor will read this blog. She will come to know that people want to know more of Jodha- Akbar not anybody else.Doesn't matter now the timeline is not followed. As it is nobody will be interested in knowing when exactly happened, they want to know what exactly happened! Wish Ekta makes history geek her creative head:)

  16. Akbar gives orders to issue the coins in his name and God. :)

  17. Sankaran SatheedeviFebruary 19, 2015 at 8:13 PM

    I hope so too! Hope they don't destroy it as JA

  18. I hope so abhay...
    So i don't need to be tired... :D
    But i told u. English is big trouble for most of us here. We, the admins, even are asked to translate daily written update, which is published by Zee TV, every night. If we don't do that, they will force us to do that all the time..
    And for indonesian Akdha Lovers, that's what a fanspage for. That's why they join a fanspage. To keep them updated with everything about Jodha-Akbar that published in english by Hindi people. Funny nha... :D
    Even they ask us to translate fanfiction from india forum, and all news from telly also!!!

    This is, one of my article, based of your post. About MUZ. And there, i mention this blog.

  19. I attach here, screenshot of my article that mention this blog link...
    I told them to visit this blog. But they said "Please just translate for us..." :D

    Couldn't insert the link here. Don't know why...

  20. okay Abhay, so it's same with what written update said.

  21. Thank you so much Abhay :)

    As it is seen, the royal couple are shown to be the dumbest people in the palace, while the villains are just shown to be smarter than everybody :(

    Its best to ignore Ruqs' presence in their lives :P She thinks she is Maham, but in reality she is nowhere close :P

    Oh yes, this new track seems interesting. As per what I know, in today's episode Salim just got one minute worth of footage while Anarkali wasn't even shown! It was just about Jodha and Jalal today, like the old days! :)

  22. Theks abhay for you're information Make me feel batter.. n really appreciated for you're effort..

  23. Abhay great!! thanks that u posted! u know I somewhat guessed it that the track is from history..I was expecting a post from u :) I am actually glad they touched this phase of Akbar's life..esp. bcz CVs r focusing back on JJ after getting tasted the falling TRPs :P
    I want to see every detail in the show that u pointed they touched it they must wrap this up in a dignified way..we can see Shah Mansoor so his real intentions will be out in days and his execution will be a treat to watch (like Adham Khan ;-) )..Raja Maan Singh was accused today..n Birbal's displeasure was quite Maan Singh might start to investigate n spy on Mansoor as then exposure :D 2 weeks back Jalal went to talk to Mirza who is revolting..and now Mansoor is working for CVs r following history this time..forget the timeline! I bet they had no intention to build this track..only audience ke fatkar and gaaliya aur rotten tomatoes made them dig up the history books :P after tonight's episode I feel this track will be thoroughly nurtured..they changed the at least for 1 month we will be watching JA in JA fortunately :P

    how I wish they actually given us a one month of flashbacks when Salim was a toddler :(

    ek baat aur, I am enjoying this arrogant Jalal..yes he is doing wrong..very wrong..but this tells how much I miss that old ruthless Jalal that I am supporting him even when he is claiming himself the God on earth (nauzubillah)!!
    loved that the Pandit asked Jodha to be with Jalal in his rough phase. :)))

  24. Abhay

    I esp loved the part where you mentioned the Rajput wives taunting Akbar. It reminded me of the following lines from the Edicts from the Mughal Harem, by S.A.I. Tirmizi, Deputy Director of Historical Archives, Government of India:

    "The recipients of such madad i maash grants generally belonged to the orthodox class and as such constituted a bastion of conservatism. This class naturally came in conflict with Akbar when he began to build a new theoretical basis for his imperial sovereignty by embarking on the policy of religious tolerance and matrimonial alliances with the martial Rajputs. The Rajput consorts in the harem gained such an ascendancy on Akbar that he abstained from everything which they thought repugnant to their nature. It was probably in pursuance of this policy of religious tolerance combined with the influence of the Rajput inmates of the harem that Akbar extended the benefits of the madad i maash grants to the non-Muslim divines."

    The Rajput wives had such an influence on Akbar that he gave up everything they disliked, probably like eating meat. And their influence extended to the administration also, like you wrote. Here they were able to get the benefits of land grants extended to non-Muslims. :)

    I have also read that Akbar used to burn the hom or a sacred fire in compliment to his wives, the daughters of the Rajas of HInd in the female apartments and that he expected the whole court to rise up in respect in the evening as candles and lamps were lit..And that once a year, he would appear in public wearing a tilak on his forehead like a Hindu and with jewelled strings tied to his wrist by Brahmans as a blessing.

  25. Abhay

    Ruq was called Badshahi Begum (by the head of the harem) in 19th Feb's episode LOL

  26. Abhay, amaging post, So writers start, to think about this serial, or took back leap.
    seeing serial gap is coming, MS or Jalal. when i was studing, then i read, MS, & Jalal, realtionship, went, Once, unhealthymanner.or jodha is getting adviced, to support everytime, jalal.
    is this is message, after reaching or getting, top, person should be down to earth,
    Akbar showing, crazy, listining, to his qualties, is this Meesage, which day you start, your energy, appriciating Own, your personality also down, because your energy, focusing, listing own, appriciations, But cause of Back good deeds, you are feeling own similer to God. Your desire, Becoming creative (means God ), How effects, your kingdom, because, you own forgetting, you are only a a little creation, from God, but cause of your qualties, God, submitted, you some works, which you tried to do good forms.
    But you are comparing to own Him;;;;;;;but it happens.lets see

  27. Thanks Abhay for this post .It shows great courage on part of Akbar to face such religious revolts and such an inspirational speech by Maansingh .

  28. great post abhay enjoyed thorughly about the present track and anxiously waiting and excited to see the upcoming episodes after reading a lot of matter from your blog. thanks a lot

  29. Sankaran SatheedeviFebruary 21, 2015 at 2:46 PM

    Tks Abhay,for this wonderful post! It helped me to understand the storyline better. But iam still amazed at some of the forum members! Why do these ppl hate jodha so much, I don't know whether they are hating paridhi or jodha, they always twist the character and blend paridhi and jodha together. If they are hating jodha, it is kinda of heart wrenching because what has this poor soul done to them!

  30. Abhay thanks for digging out information about Akbar when he thought he was God
    Great men do have their weak moments

  31. This post is very interesting buddy .....And I don't know how to react :-ss.....It seems Akbar was surrounded by a number of flatterers who could reach his mind more than genuine ministers/people and he either seemed confused/undecided during this period or was undergoing major changes in him that made him a better king after this 5 year period.......I don't know if you understood what I wanted to convey :-ss)..

  32. Abhay

    This track is perhaps one of the most powerful chapters in Akbar's history and a turning point of his reign. Different people have different takes on it, so it's difficult to come to any conclusion whether Akbar was right or wrong during this period.

    I want to share what I read with you. It's quite similar to what you have already mentioned in the post. :)


    In 1577, the Qazi of Mathura complained to Akbar that a rich brahmin had forcibly taken possession of building material for a mosque and used it to build a temple instead. When the qazi had tried to prevent this, the brahmin's responded in his own way. His response was considered blasphemy by the qazi who promptly complained about him to the emperor.

    Akbar could not decide how to punish the brahmin due to the conflicting versions narrated by the two parties. The brahmin stayed in prison for a long time. Ultimately, Akbar asked the court theologian, Sheikh Abdul Nabi to decide the issue. The Sheikh had the brahmin executed. This led to an outcry. Many courtiers including Abul Fazl were of the view that though the brahmin committed an offence, it was not so severe that he should have been executed.

    This action was also condemned by the Rajput wives of Akbar.

    Note: Akbar cannot be totally condemned as being anti-brahmin on the basis of this incident as he was also the one to support the rights of another Mathura brahmin, Vithal Rai, through a series of farmans issued by him and his mother.

    Akbar was troubled not only by this incident but by the general legal position that gave sweeping powers to the ullema and he had to be at their mercy in deciding such issues. After much consultation with Shaikh Mubarik, Abul Fazl's father, Akbar decided to assume absolute and independent powers of judgment (ijtihad) so that his decision would be final in any case, civil or religious.

    Ideally, he should have used such powers only when the interest of the empire was at stake. But, he ended up using these powers indiscriminately.

    Akbar's autocratic ways led to rebellions against him, led by the qazi of Jaunpur, Mullah Muhammad Yazdi in 1580. Akbar got Yazdi and the qazi of Bengal, Muiz-ul-mulk, executed by drowning. After this, open rebellion broke out in 1581 and Akbar's detractors tried to dethrone him and place Mirza Hakim in his stead as the emperor. They were however badly defeated by Akbar's army and had to beat a hasty retreat.

  33. A sort of religious touch was given to the struggle by Akbar, i mean, if Maharana Pratap will not surrender, then Akbar decided to pressurize the population(Non Muslims) on whose behalf Maharana was fighting. :)

  34. Geeta,
    Creatives have the link of this blog, and i too hope that they read some of it at least. So that we can have much better tracks. :)

  35. Most welcome Winarsih. Are you from Indonesia ? :))

  36. Thanks for your beautiful views Tamy. :)
    This track has proceeded a lot now. I hope till now you've enjoyed it ?
    Isn't it ? :)
    I am also of the same opinion, falling TRP's have forced the makers to return back to JA again. Hope for the best. :)

  37. Ayushi,
    This track is proceeding quite nicely right now. I wish we get to see some REAL politics in play. We have high hopes, lets see. :)

  38. Completely agree Rashmi. Akbar needed a big heart to counter this revolt.

    Man Singh's speech was really inspiring. :)

  39. Most welcome Mehak. Very nice to see you commenting now. Yes, this track is very interesting, because after a lot of time, we are watching something from history, even if dramatized. :)

  40. Thanks Sankaran. :)
    Yes the story line is improving. About the members, i would say, lets ignore what we don't like and when we can not do anything to control it. It is the best philosophy in such situations. :)

  41. What a fine line Sunram! Completely agree with it. :)

  42. Pallavi,
    I completely understood what you want to convey. :)
    There are some confusing moments in everyone's lives where he makes such "controversial" decisions. This was one such phase in AKbar's life. Hope you enjoyed reading it. :)

  43. Much appreciated details Radhika. TFS. :D

  44. The way I see it JA screen writers have been making a frantic disaster recovery. They are making so many "quantum leaps" if may use that term.

  45. Radhika,
    It will be much appreciated if you post this as a separate post on the blog. Please do so, when you get time. It needs to read by many more people. :)

  46. Abhay

    thanks, will try to post this when i get time :)